Paid to Protect? - dut's take on this heavily chased after card

By dutpotd, in UFS General Discussion

So I suppose I am quickly becoming known as the player that argues against oft run cards, standoff, financial troubles, etc. And maybe you can toss another - "dut is crazy, that card is staple" - at me in response to this topic.

That said, I'm still posting this because it is my opinion and it might help a few of you a) take a more well-rounded look at the meta, or b) find alternatives to cards you don't have for whatever reason.

So that everyone knows what I'm talking about, the card Paid to Protect was a prerelease card handed out (or won) during the Tekken prerelease near the middle/end of September. Many of the complaints on the forums are that there wasn't enough of it available. You should note that I have a playset of 4 between me and the person I share cards with, and also note that I am not planning to discuss prize support or card distribution in this thread.

Paid to Protect, henceforth P2P, reads (I don't have it in front of me so this is just the gist of it):

E commit: Reveal your hand. This attack's damage is reduced by X where X is equal to the number of keywords on cards in your hand.

R commit: Before attempting to block your opponents attack the speed of the attack is returned to it's printed speed.

It has a 2 difficulty, a 5 control check, a +3 mid block, is a foundation, and has the Earth, Fire, and Void symbols.

---

How good is this card? Is this card needed to play at the top levels? Why or why not? Hopefully the below analysis can help you answer these questions.

Before including a card in my deck I usually ask. What can this card do for me? In every character but Hilde this card can help you survive, in Hilde it can give you a damage pump if used appropriately and before her Character enhance commit. I am not aware of any other character that can use this card offensively. The following discussion ignores Hilde because, yes, you would 100% use this card in Hilde if utilizing the symbol she shares with it, granted her vitality means she needs all the reduce/defense possible and it offers a very high damage reduce (or pump) if used correctly.

Under the assumption that I take into games, either I want an extremely aggressive deck, or a well rounded deck (i.e. A defensive only deck doesn't cut it at the moment without a really good exhaust method) P2P would only help round out the deck, and probably wouldn't be used in an aggressive only deck because it would not contribute in any way shape or form to a quick kill. I then need to know if it is the best option for rounding off a deck, or if I already have enough defenses. Personally, my favorite defensive cards are also aggressive, and in the current meta there are a few - Ultimate Team, Torn Hero, Ka Technique, Enemies now Friends, Standoff, Valued but not Trusted, Chasing After the Power, etc. Almost all of these cards I'd include in a deck before a strictly defensive card like P2P because they offer more flexibility. You will also notice that many of the cards listed either have earth, fire, or void... Strictly speaking all 3 of the symbols that P2P has already have defensive pieces, and already have defensive pieces that are also aggressive or flexible. If you agree with this we can move on to the next paragraph.

So what does P2P offer exclusively that these other defensive cards don't? I would argue that it offers void damage redux, and that void doesn't have a lot of damage redux. I would also argue it offers fire and earth unique damage redux that can either provide better or worse results than what it currently has. Sadly, I would also argue it provides the 'worse' results for earth and void, and 'better' results for fire in the way of damage redux. First of all, earth and void don't have 'mass' draw. They have draw, void has a bit more than earth, but in both cases it is more of a 'refill' hand option, rather than a rampant draw that fire has access to with assets (Paul's Gi, Hilde's weapons) and foundations (relentless, financial troubles) and actions (overconfident). Second, fire tends to have more keywords on their played cards. If you disagree with that all I ask you to do is look through 2 headed. So, the damage redux can be good for fire, but certainly isn't an exclusive thing to fire, a symbol that has countless other ways to reduce damage. I would argue that the redux for earth and void is negligible, more so in earth which has other better ways to reduce damage.

No surprise then that this card boils down to its second ability, the response that reduces speed. Now I ask you in all honesty, how many character cards utilize speed on few big attacks in today’s Meta? The answer, in my opinion, is surprisingly few… The only really dangerous ones are Hata and Hilde. Astrid stacked uses some speed, but most of her damage comes from big damage on many attacks (and many attacks works well because of the weapon keyword thing). Life characters in general have support that influences speed… White Crane can boost speed, but as of yet isn’t that influential. Sadly, Hata and Hilde are ‘top tier’ characters but are only 2/10 top tier characters, and arguably not the best two of that group. At least in my mind they aren’t.

We also have the fact that both Hata and Hilde will also use pommel or some sort of way to target your P2P, whether it be siren’s call or even persevering despite rejection. In other words, relying on the speed reduce as a defense isn’t good enough and should go hand in hand with other defenses. Then we have the fact that Hilde isn’t best beaten with good defense… She is beaten best with quick offense.

Long story short we have one character, Hata, that you might think you need speed redux against. I’m also going to step out on a limb here and say the best way to beat Hata isn’t to ‘block’ that one big attack. In fact, blocking against Hata is intrinsically difficult to do, what with his zone changing and stuff. Instead, the best way to beat a Hata is to ‘survive’ his turn, something that is much better accomplished with some timely damage reduction or by reducing the number of attacks he can throw in a turn. We also have the fact that stun is a big factor in this case, and that your ability to keep enough foundations ready to pass a printed speed block is still in question… P2P is also very subject to lockdown or an easy target. Why do you ask? Simply put, P2P responds after the enhance phase. Compare this to defensive abilities that can be played during the enhance phase before being stunned out or targeted. You know where I am going with this… Simple damage reduction, whether it be on the field or from the hand is the best way to survive Hata, not trying to survive by protecting a P2P. 1) The Hata won’t commit out if he knows you are just going to P2P and block, 2) You still have to pass a check and block the right zone… not super reliable.

I suppose there is also the argument that you will see big damage attacks created by PotM that are given speed pump. In these cases my argument would be that asset hate is more of an answer than speed reduction, especially since you will still need a block and still need to pass a check to block, wheras asset answers would be an easier answer and probably a more efficient way to survive.

Paid to Protect is a great card. But even great cards find the sideboard more often than not, see MAC. This card isn’t ‘that’ important, at this point it doesn’t go anywhere towards defining the meta, and trust a player who has used it plenty, it is a very ‘sit and be useless card’ in the staging area except for in very restricted matchups and situations (those that usually are still limited to your opponents turn). I would even go as far as to say the reason this is a promo card and not a set card is because speed reduction is not needed or tier defining right now, instead it is an ability that has its use in select situations and as such only a select few decks require it (hence few are needed by the mass population and few being released ‘shouldn’t’ be a problem…).

In closing I'd like to mention the alternatives to P2P, i.e. if you don’t even have this card for your sideboard what should you do. Personally, Flexible Body is my favorite. Then there is Faithful Bodyguard, Scroll of the Abyss, Valued but not Trusted, Rashotep, JJ, etc. I’ve also elaborated on the importance of damage redux cards, granted most decks that try to one shot you with a fast attack use multiple enhances and leave themselves very open after doing so (i.e. surviving is all that is needed for an easy counter win). Sa Symbol of Protection, Toughest in the Universe, King’s Action, etc. )

I hope this brief look into my analysis of a much talked about card helps the vast majority of players ^^

- dut

ps. P2P may become better and more influential as more sets are released, especially if speed pump comes back in the way it existed in block 2. This is just a 'right now' analysis of the card.

As someone who has used 4x P2P in my main board I have to agree that it is an overrated card. Is it good? Absolutly, but it's definatly not game breaking. Let's break it down:

It's damage redux is good. Not great, but good, and only good in certain builds. It's amazing in Astrid, running things such as Pommel Smash, 1st Rite, any of the 2+ keyword weapon assets (Valkreyja Shield has THREE!). It's great in Paul Phoenix with cards such as Turn Thruster and Phoenix Smasher. After that? Well... For Fire there's Hilde and Hata... Even Vik barley used the enhance at the SAS, as the keywords ranged from the ones on Knight Breaker to... Well Hilde's Weapon? Oh yeah, and it's to a minimum of 1, unlike cards such as Stand Off.

Earth and Void are even MORE hardpressed to find a lot of keywords on their stuff.

There are currently (according to Essential Games) 7 Earth non character only dual keyword cards.

Cobra Twist

Close Throw

Double Face Kick

Flinging Half Nelson

Crushing Embrace of the Jotun

Stormhammer

Ymirfang

Void also has 7 non character only dual keyword cards, and one of them is only really good in Cervantes:

Flinging Half Nelson

Jaguar Straight

Close Throw

Dark Geo Ray

Shockwave Palm

Evil Mist

Acheron and Nirvana

Now having only experience my own personal meta and that of ATL and South Florida, I can safely say that the majority of these cards aren't even run. From Earth I've seen Crushing Embrace and Close Throw. From Void... Well nobody I've seen played pure Void, but I've seen Dark GeoDude and Close Throw used in other symbols.

My point is, unlike in decks such as Astrid, most decks won't be holding back lots of keywords, as most keywords these days are stuck on attacks and assets mainly.

The speed reduction is great, except apart from Hilde, Hata, and the reusable free speed Life decks get in the Hoolahoop and Robes of the Grand Master, there is next to no real speed boost. There's plenty of damage boost, but Stand Off is usually more than enough to deal with it. As such, the speed reduction will rarley get used against most decks.

Anyways that's my lil rant. P2P is a decent card, and if they print a bunch of speed pumps without relreleasing it, I can see where all this screaming is warranted, but overall, I'd sooner see Path of the Master redistributed (impossible I know) than this.

Very good essay dut, you make a lot of good points considering the uses and alternatives for Paid to Protect. I agree with a lot of what you say, but I also think that what is comming in the next few sets will determine the importance of P2P. Looking at just a few of the characters that are comming (mainly Sophitia and who knows what other characters are comming via promo) and some that are already here (I think White Crane will see some play, as there are already some people in my playgroup who have acquried copies and plan on making decks based on them) I think that reducing speed will become quite important in the next couple of sets.

I have already played against Lu chen, Tira, Ivy and a couple of other decks that use speed boosts (such as Eiserne Drossel and Robes of the Grandmaster) to throw nearly unblockable attacks my way. P2P would have certainly helped me in some of those cases (not all mind you) and maybe kept me alive for an extra turn. I'm not saying that P2P is the greatest card in the current block, but a 2/5 +3M is nothing to sneeze at, especially with so few blocks around.

While it's true that we don't know if speed nerfs are also comming in the next set (which they may very well be) at the very least I know that I have some protection against them whatever comes down the pipe in SC4 and beyond.

I agree with your post but, if you read one part of Vik's blog about his tourney report, there was on point where the guy thought he could win but Vik just P2P the attack bringing it down to a measly 1. Even in high speed decks, usually the damage is lower, there the damage redox would come in handy. Even if the next set has speed nerfs, the two abilities are still QUITE powerful.

Very good article, Garrett. Very informative. *high-five*

Speed pumps aren't that prevelant now, yes. Even so, P2P will many times be a game saver with a speed pump of even +2.

I think the damage redux part is more important tho. Revealing your hand can ind33d be a downside, but it won't matter in the end where the damage redux will save your ass on their kill turn.


It seems to outclass most damage redux. At least how I see it :)
Stand Off is better in some circumstances tho.

Thank you for sharing your views and why you feel the card is not as powerful as believed. I agree with you to an extent. The card is not as powerful as people say and is not as manditory as people say. I think a lot of what is going on is more based on people wanting something they were promised or don't have. With that said I do have so disagreements with your assesments.

Hata and Hilde are the main reasons why people want P2P but they are not the only reasons we know off that P2P needs more distrabution. If we look closely we know 2 cards that that are going to change radically how we see speed in the up comming months. The first is Sophita promo. The second is Acrobatics. Both cards make speed a powerful thing. A balanced non-abusive way of using Acro is to damage enhance once or twice, acro, finish damage enhancing. This is what I see people doing if they didn't pull their speed cards. Sophita does something that is defensively sick for her hp. She reduces and increases speed with the same E. This means that if you want to push something through or slow mo an attack you can abuse Sophita to do it. This E should have required a commit. But it doesn't. Sophita has the potential To either do high damage and crazy speed through Fire or Crazy Acro flips with Life/water. Fighting against her p2p is a must. Fighting against a balance acro flip p2p is a must. Note this is as it stands right now.

People really don't look outside of big symbols to really look at the state of the meta after the general consensus is put out there. One thing that I noticed was that Air had access to a lot of speed pumps. Keeper of the watchers, from the horse endurence, Eiserne Drossel, Ostrheinsburg Castle - Twilight, and Willful. That is a lot of speed pumping power. Air also has Dragon Lifter E,Execution Technique Third Rite E,Grappling Knee Strike, and Law's Somersault Kick E giving speed boosts. Air can jack people up. But hey since Air isn't talked about that much most people haven't looked deep and saw that speed is the game of Air right now and it has access to a ton of overlooked cards that can wreck a deck. I found half of this tech looking at the viablity of Air Nina and I was shocked that it was more agressive and possible better then death Nina. I know I'm speaking heresy to normal forum speak. But I think P2P has a place in the current state of the game and Hilde and Hata are the strongman diversions from us really looking how we can break speed in the game.

Hilde is more abussive then Hata when it comes to speed pumps. Hilde gains speed = to the inversed damage negation on top of the inversed speed negation. THat is hella broke. Even if she simulates ring out ability, when applied to ufs breaks the game. She can get speed values that exceede the amount of foundations that are in play easily. Most games she can reach speeds that exceede the number of foundations in a person's deck. She is a 1 trick pony yes. But she goes for the 1 shot. I think p2p would be of less demand if the boosted damage of hilde was not allowed to be applied to her speed. Any speed pump or speed and damage pump that comes fire/order/good way she will play just to be more of a monster. That is the big issue. Hata is strong but more balanced. Hata is just a stronger version of Paul. Hata is a great card but if you look close how Hata is played he is gaining at max +6 speed an attack. Most players are not going to over extend playing Hata knowing he still has to defend. But 28 life is a good place to work from. If you look closely people have compeletely overlooked Air Hata, and Death Hata not seeing that he can do something that Fire Hata can not. That is control and do damage. Most control decks lack in the damage department. But Air and Death give Hata the ability to make sure the retaliation of their opponents is limited and weak. When we see Air Hata hit the field p2p will really be needed but Fire Hata, due to Vik, has paved a way for results for people to easily nod their head to and blindly accept.

I can go on for a bit. I think Hata as a designer sees the need for the card. So do a lot of other people the damage redux is down right suck. We all admit that. Most people aren't playing the card for that. People are playing the card to deal with the massive amount of speed jank that is out there. P2P does put more focus on throw decks. I will admit that. At the same time it makes it so that speed demon characters can't continually force things through. Once Air, Chaos, Order, and Water fill out some more I think the meta will be very concerned about speed pumps because massive tricks with damage will be coming our way. Air I forsee will be the multiples paradise. Chaos will gives us more character card usefulness and tutoring. Water will give us a lot of remove from cardpool I think. These elements, when filled out and given general support elements of speed and damage pumps will make fire, life, and Earth players up their game. Dut I respect your analysis. But I think that you need to look again at different symbols and the options they have and not just look at the major symbols of the meta.

Can you see my previous post. For some reason the website isn't regestering my post.

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.

I think it's because I edited my post a lil, so it took me as the last activity.

I love you because you said "exhust" and not... that other nasty word.

Shaneth said:

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.

I think it's because I edited my post a lil, so it took me as the last activity.

Shaneth said:

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.

I think it's because I edited my post a lil, so it took me as the last activity.

How do you edit your posts on here? I can't seem to do it w/o ending up double posting. serio.gif

vermillian said:

I love you because you said "exhust" and not... that other nasty word.


Do you mean


MMMMMMMIIIIIIIIIIIILLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL?

so does this mean that your going to give mark his paid to protects back? or is this another one of your "I'm trying to bull those idiots on the forums to not run good cards." things...

kiit said:

so does this mean that your going to give mark his paid to protects back? or is this another one of your "I'm trying to bull those idiots on the forums to not run good cards." things...

I think the intent is good. I think that its the forum cloud more-so then anything else that is basing his statements. I feel that Dut feels that the common deck is not going to speed abuse. To that I agree because most of the decks that are in play are earth and fire decks. But those that are looking to do something different will prove that P2P is a needed card. While life is not a joke,it doesn't hit as hard as other decks. Powderpuff light speed hits are still powderpuff hits. Now when you look at death you see a lot of moderate damage. Death doesn't have a lot of practical damage pumps. So in general DUT is right. When you look at Air and Chaos the potential workings of speed and damage is overwhelming. Air in paticular can speed pump and push through some good damage attacks. I also if you look closely Air can't tap P2P directly. The only thing Air can do is to make it so that p2p is a check.

If a person is packing p2p for damage reduction then they need to rethink their deck design. This card is purely there to make it so you can block crazy speed attacks.

kiit said:

so does this mean that your going to give mark his paid to protects back? or is this another one of your "I'm trying to bull those idiots on the forums to not run good cards." things...

@ fictional cat girl - You are always good for a laugh, seeing as how Mark owns like none of the cards exclusively (I paid for all of the prerelease entries... drive him to and from everything... and he still owes me money for stuff). In other words, the amount he puts into our collection would see him have very few if any cards, but you always present it like I use him for cards... It is the other way around. More so since I build all his decks, he uses me for cards and decks/time, yet you always bring it up as me having cards and doing well because of my use of him. Weird huh? Weirder that he's never said he's ever had a problem sharing, but that you think you can speak for him...

Even weirder still, after he does do well and wins our regionals you don't give him credit and say it is becuase I lost on purpose or becuase I built his decks. Flip flop much? Have to dig deep to find reasons for why you haven't dented me for a year now... Ever since broke-nako and block 2 cards left I can't recall you offering me any sort of challenge at the card table... Must be because I have 1/4 of my cards from a guy that I help play at a high level for less economic comittment. Must be.

And I've never said what you quoted, nor would I ever do something like that, I honestly think Standoff, Financial Troubles, and Paid to Protect are all overrated and often (not always) used/included in decks innapropriately.

@ darklogos - we can see your post, ripe with some really interesting presumptions and conclusions. Hilde's speed is more abusive = duh. But beating Hilde doesn't involve slowing her down, trust me, the best way to beat her is to do 18 damage turn 2 or 3, something MANY characters can accomplish, and much more consistently than drawing into 1 of 4 cards in the same number of turns that are 'only' good against her and few others.

If you think I only look at the 'major' symbols you are seriously off track with respect to the way I approach the game. I am 100% in touch with what all the symbols can do, and said life has some speed pump, obviously air has little bits of it here and there too, but in all cases you are looking at reasonable speed pump, all of which can be blocked through. P2P is a card that says, 'this allows me to block something I couldn't otherwise block because of the magnitude of the speed pump that it has gained', there are really only a few circumstances that apply in this case, one is Hilde, one is Hata, one is White Crane, and one is From the Horse on a many multiple attack. Everything else is too slow and negates the benefit of P2P because of the time it takes to set up a series of minor speed pumps. fyi, a speed pump of 4/5 or more is major imo. What you have in P2P vs. life, chaos, air, etc. is a card with some use, i.e. I can now block and commit 1 foundation instead of 3 or 4, but it really isn't giving me enough of a benefit to include in the mainboard of the deck. Those spots are reserved for cards that help me win, not cards that 'might' help me commit fewer cards in a mid/late game attempt to survive.

Everything with respect to the 'future' is correct (my ps agrees with you of course), we dont know how important this card will become. All I'm addressing is it's importance in the here and now, and specficially in response to me seeing it in decks that don't benefit from having it.

- dut

My 2 cents on P2P.
Like any other form of "control" in the sense, its a speed bump. Hilde draws no pommel? = bought myself a turn.

The enhance I feel is one of those things your deck either supports it or it doesn't. You wont design the deck to work around it but occasionally you'll find yourself with a deck that can support it. Kind of a fun side effect.

P2P an end all? No. Is it a staple? Board for most people in a limited card pool. Is the card over valued. For sure..
But the biggest issue is the lack of distribution thats why this card is a "hot" topic.

Nfxon said:

But the biggest issue is the lack of distribution thats why this card is a "hot" topic.

Bingo.

It's hard for me to properly evaluate a card I've never seen played yet, although I could see myself running 4 copies in King if only because of the symbol spread.

dutpotd said:

@ darklogos - we can see your post, ripe with some really interesting presumptions and conclusions. Hilde's speed is more abusive = duh. But beating Hilde doesn't involve slowing her down, trust me, the best way to beat her is to do 18 damage turn 2 or 3, something MANY characters can accomplish, and much more consistently than drawing into 1 of 4 cards in the same number of turns that are 'only' good against her and few others.

If you think I only look at the 'major' symbols you are seriously off track with respect to the way I approach the game. I am 100% in touch with what all the symbols can do, and said life has some speed pump, obviously air has little bits of it here and there too, but in all cases you are looking at reasonable speed pump, all of which can be blocked through. P2P is a card that says, 'this allows me to block something I couldn't otherwise block because of the magnitude of the speed pump that it has gained', there are really only a few circumstances that apply in this case, one is Hilde, one is Hata, one is White Crane, and one is From the Horse on a many multiple attack. Everything else is too slow and negates the benefit of P2P because of the time it takes to set up a series of minor speed pumps. fyi, a speed pump of 4/5 or more is major imo. What you have in P2P vs. life, chaos, air, etc. is a card with some use, i.e. I can now block and commit 1 foundation instead of 3 or 4, but it really isn't giving me enough of a benefit to include in the mainboard of the deck. Those spots are reserved for cards that help me win, not cards that 'might' help me commit fewer cards in a mid/late game attempt to survive.

Everything with respect to the 'future' is correct (my ps agrees with you of course), we dont know how important this card will become. All I'm addressing is it's importance in the here and now, and specficially in response to me seeing it in decks that don't benefit from having it.

- dut

I think that the providing speed synergy with several cards in Air can vouch for a strong argument for p2p if your meta has a good air deck. Life's only major attack is Wrath of Heaven and everything else it speeds pumps can be knocked down fast. Thing I'm looking at is stacking multiple speed pumps for potential abuse. To an extent, i could be wrong, your looking at early turn and every turn consistency. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that point at all. I'm saying that there are enough speed tricks to make the card valid in the format. Being 1 point faster or 10 points faster doesn't matter. Stacking a bunch of small speed pumps can be just as overwhelming as one big speed pump.

The Hilde issue is a problem. Reducing her speed down to printed for some decks is more viable then doing 18 really quick. The 18 damage solution points the player back to high aggro decks and knocks down tech decks. P2P makes it so one doesn't have to rock 18 damage to survive "IF" they have p2p in play. We can argue all day about in play or not in play. The truth is that Hilde can only commit and hyperbeam once per turn. Unless she can ready herself after she commits she has to depend on her foundations and a few action tricks to really push attacks through. Hata can speed/damage pump but it has been said that most Hata players are not going to tap out to create this monster speed/damage attack. When we look at Hata the"Do 28 damage" solution falls short.

Is the main issue distribution? Yes it is.But the other issue is that speed is becoming really strong and people want techy ways of dealing with speed.

darklogos said:

I think that the providing speed synergy with several cards in Air can vouch for a strong argument for p2p if your meta has a good air deck. Life's only major attack is Wrath of Heaven and everything else it speeds pumps can be knocked down fast. Thing I'm looking at is stacking multiple speed pumps for potential abuse. To an extent, i could be wrong, your looking at early turn and every turn consistency. I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing that point at all. I'm saying that there are enough speed tricks to make the card valid in the format. Being 1 point faster or 10 points faster doesn't matter. Stacking a bunch of small speed pumps can be just as overwhelming as one big speed pump.

The Hilde issue is a problem. Reducing her speed down to printed for some decks is more viable then doing 18 really quick. The 18 damage solution points the player back to high aggro decks and knocks down tech decks. P2P makes it so one doesn't have to rock 18 damage to survive "IF" they have p2p in play. We can argue all day about in play or not in play. The truth is that Hilde can only commit and hyperbeam once per turn. Unless she can ready herself after she commits she has to depend on her foundations and a few action tricks to really push attacks through. Hata can speed/damage pump but it has been said that most Hata players are not going to tap out to create this monster speed/damage attack. When we look at Hata the"Do 28 damage" solution falls short.

Is the main issue distribution? Yes it is.But the other issue is that speed is becoming really strong and people want techy ways of dealing with speed.

The thing is, and what my prior post was trying to say, is that every time you play multiple cards that do the same thing, all that increase speed slightly you are a) taking long to setup - the player/opponent with or without paid to protect is building at least one foundation to every one you are, or b) you are putting these multiple speed bumps into your deck in exchange for damage pump or other tech that will help you in more cases than not. i.e stacking multiple speed pumps for potential abuse in anything is not viable at this point because there are other more important tech pieces to have.

I agree and disagree with Hilde, if your deck can't kill Hilde turn 3 than yes you do need to run things like paid to protect (i.e. your tech needs to be defensive granted you need to survive to turn 4+). But, my point is this - Earth, Fire... Void. They are all agressive symbols (void maybe the least) at this point in time and can all doll out 18 damage before Hilde can amass a strong enough attack to kill you with one shot. And like I said, Void probably gets the most unique use out of this card because it doesn't have a lot of other damage redux... Agreed 100% on the Hata, P2P is good against Hata, and I said that in my OP. The thing is, both Hilde and Hata are not 'the best' characters, and even if you believe one of them is there are plenty of others that can contend. i.e. teching, or including cards in your deck that are only 'really' helpful against 1 or 2 characters is not efficient and won't get you far in a well rounded / balanced meta, which is more or less what we have.

Speed isn't becoming really strong, Hilde and Hata have been out since day one of this block... What has become stronger is stun, damage redux enabling slightly longer games and improving the utility of speed + stun, and other forms of staging area control (destruction).

I promised I wouldn't toss my money in on the distribution issue. But basically I am in the boat that some cards should be less available than others, especially if their abilities are good in a small number of circumstances (which is what I believe P2P is). If everyone had everything it wouldn't be a collectible card game. Rewarding players who win prereleases with exclusive cards has its pros and cons, pro - more players will play in and play harder in prereleases knowing that rare or exclusive cards are up for grabs. If the card isn't 'necessary', and really only hampers deck design in 1 or 2 character cases, then having this card exclusive isn't detrimental to the community.

You can contrast this with character cards, whose distribution are 95% up to the owner of the card. Winning needs to have an incentive, this is what most people are after - 'better' prize support, one way of doing this is giving out prize support that is exclusive to an event or exclusive to 'winners' of a few events. The only thing I ask of the game is that all of the card information is available, i.e. if Hata's card is legal for tourney x, everyone should know this and everyone should know exactly what it does. Not everyone should easily get their hands on it.

- dut

dutpotd said:

I promised I wouldn't toss my money in on the distribution issue. But basically I am in the boat that some cards should be less available than others, especially if their abilities are good in a small number of circumstances (which is what I believe P2P is). If everyone had everything it wouldn't be a collectible card game. Rewarding players who win prereleases with exclusive cards has its pros and cons, pro - more players will play in and play harder in prereleases knowing that rare or exclusive cards are up for grabs. If the card isn't 'necessary', and really only hampers deck design in 1 or 2 character cases, then having this card exclusive isn't detrimental to the community.

Thats undestandable and I wont argue that point. I will however point out. Georgia, the state, had four copies of PTP sent to the entire state. Thats a bit scarce. Considering our store alone packs 13+ players. Now lets say you need at least 3 copies of it decked to ever reliably draw it. Our store alone would need 40ish copies. << That is a bit much but half that number is not bad for a big store. That to me, is determental. B/c I wouldn't run it for the speed hate.

Nfxon said:

dutpotd said:

I promised I wouldn't toss my money in on the distribution issue. But basically I am in the boat that some cards should be less available than others, especially if their abilities are good in a small number of circumstances (which is what I believe P2P is). If everyone had everything it wouldn't be a collectible card game. Rewarding players who win prereleases with exclusive cards has its pros and cons, pro - more players will play in and play harder in prereleases knowing that rare or exclusive cards are up for grabs. If the card isn't 'necessary', and really only hampers deck design in 1 or 2 character cases, then having this card exclusive isn't detrimental to the community.

Thats undestandable and I wont argue that point. I will however point out. Georgia, the state, had four copies of PTP sent to the entire state. Thats a bit scarce. Considering our store alone packs 13+ players. Now lets say you need at least 3 copies of it decked to ever reliably draw it. Our store alone would need 40ish copies. << That is a bit much but half that number is not bad for a big store. That to me, is determental. B/c I wouldn't run it for the speed hate.

This too is understandable and I can't argue it either. Mostly why I didn't want to talk 'availability'. P2P is a good card, great in many cases, but isn't really on the same level of 'common' playability as something as generic as Path of the Master, notwithstanding the comparison to Path, this is all I am trying to get across in my opinion thread here.

My opinion, each playgroup/prerelease order should get 20 copies of the prerelease card. The top 2 players should each get playsets of it, or at least 2 copies, and the rest is distributed evenly to participants according to results or whatever the Scout wants. i.e. if there are 12 players, maybe everyone gets 1 for entering and top 4 all get another 2 copies.

4 in a state is not good. However, there needs to be a connect between store owners, scouts, and FFG. i.e. if FFG is telling you the prerelease kit contains 4 of a card that you feel you need 20 of to distribute then tell the store owner to order 5 kits, charge an entry fee, or simply sell the extra product as if it was bought. Now, I know there are issues with ordering multiple kits, but if the communication is there, i.e. telling FFG this is why you are ordering 5 kits, and you're willing to back it up with the money or whatever, I'm sure these things can be arranged. Either FFG gets the idea and includes more cards or they allow the order of more kits, or release the card again in another promotion.

- dut

darklogos said:

Keeper of the watchers, from the horse endurence, Eiserne Drossel, Ostrheinsburg Castle - Twilight, and Willful. That is a lot of speed pumping power. Air also has Dragon Lifter E,Execution Technique Third Rite E,Grappling Knee Strike, and Law's Somersault Kick E giving speed boosts.

First rite>Grappling Knee strike >dragon lifter

Play first rite, stun 2, commit drossel. 5 speed 3 damage. Grappling Knee strike, +2 speed drossel, 5 speed 4 damage attack. Dragon Lifter combo e +4 damage, +4 from knee strike, E +3 speed, drossel.12 speed 8 damage attack. In the turn a total of 20 speed has been distrabuted. Most of the speed buffs came from combos.

First rite>second rite>Third rite>Willful>multiple>multiple

First rite can be speed pumped or not. Second rite and +2 for drossel. Third rite E give speed and damage. Use willful. The next multiple attack gets +3 speed and +2 for drossel. Third rite added speed and willful added speed. Not majorly abusive but it gets the job done. Adding drossel at this point would be just plan sick.

wheel kick>wheel kick> Laws summersault kick>multiple

The opponent is stunned out Laws Summersault kicks gets +3 speed. The same goes for the multiple. Add in drossel to all the kicks.

Air doesn't really have a lot of damage pumps. You have wondering dragon staff. Long standing rivarly, ruthless, trained far and wide, are very conditional. All air has is tricks and speed. I didn't factor in from the horse and keeper of the watchers because their values fluxuate. But I hope I've shown that with a few cards lots of speed can be generated on a turn with air. Not only that but its the attack themselves and not so much the foundations or assets that are giving the speed boosts.

darklogos said:

Air doesn't really have a lot of damage pumps. You have wondering dragon staff. Long standing rivarly, ruthless, trained far and wide, are very conditional. All air has is tricks and speed. I didn't factor in from the horse and keeper of the watchers because their values fluxuate. But I hope I've shown that with a few cards lots of speed can be generated on a turn with air. Not only that but its the attack themselves and not so much the foundations or assets that are giving the speed boosts.

Hata turns Air from a so-so symbol into a combotastic grizzly bear of destruction. It's ridiculous. Lifter in and of itself is sexy, but you can put in Oratorio Halcyon pretty easily with Grappling Knee Strike and that vanilla Temujin Weapon mid card. Since you switch your zones and pump speed and damage, all your attacks come in at way too much, Air has Drossel on top of that and not only that but you can get Oratorio Halcyon to work very easily 'cause Grappling Knee Strike is mid, and combos with Weapon, making for a very good string of Vanilla Weapon, Grappling Knee Strike and Oratorio Halcyon. It's even more stupid if you can manage to do it with Shredding Vibrato with some Driven by Fear's because, as we all know, Hata has Death.

However, I cannot say for the rest of the characters, but Hata gives Air something it lacks at the moment.

dutpotd said:

kiit said:

so does this mean that your going to give mark his paid to protects back? or is this another one of your "I'm trying to bull those idiots on the forums to not run good cards." things...

@ fictional cat girl - You are always good for a laugh, seeing as how Mark owns like none of the cards exclusively (I paid for all of the prerelease entries... drive him to and from everything... and he still owes me money for stuff). In other words, the amount he puts into our collection would see him have very few if any cards, but you always present it like I use him for cards... It is the other way around. More so since I build all his decks, he uses me for cards and decks/time, yet you always bring it up as me having cards and doing well because of my use of him. Weird huh? Weirder that he's never said he's ever had a problem sharing, but that you think you can speak for him...

Even weirder still, after he does do well and wins our regionals you don't give him credit and say it is becuase I lost on purpose or becuase I built his decks. Flip flop much? Have to dig deep to find reasons for why you haven't dented me for a year now... Ever since broke-nako and block 2 cards left I can't recall you offering me any sort of challenge at the card table... Must be because I have 1/4 of my cards from a guy that I help play at a high level for less economic comittment. Must be.

And I've never said what you quoted, nor would I ever do something like that, I honestly think Standoff, Financial Troubles, and Paid to Protect are all overrated and often (not always) used/included in decks innapropriately.

@ darklogos - we can see your post, ripe with some really interesting presumptions and conclusions. Hilde's speed is more abusive = duh. But beating Hilde doesn't involve slowing her down, trust me, the best way to beat her is to do 18 damage turn 2 or 3, something MANY characters can accomplish, and much more consistently than drawing into 1 of 4 cards in the same number of turns that are 'only' good against her and few others.

If you think I only look at the 'major' symbols you are seriously off track with respect to the way I approach the game. I am 100% in touch with what all the symbols can do, and said life has some speed pump, obviously air has little bits of it here and there too, but in all cases you are looking at reasonable speed pump, all of which can be blocked through. P2P is a card that says, 'this allows me to block something I couldn't otherwise block because of the magnitude of the speed pump that it has gained', there are really only a few circumstances that apply in this case, one is Hilde, one is Hata, one is White Crane, and one is From the Horse on a many multiple attack. Everything else is too slow and negates the benefit of P2P because of the time it takes to set up a series of minor speed pumps. fyi, a speed pump of 4/5 or more is major imo. What you have in P2P vs. life, chaos, air, etc. is a card with some use, i.e. I can now block and commit 1 foundation instead of 3 or 4, but it really isn't giving me enough of a benefit to include in the mainboard of the deck. Those spots are reserved for cards that help me win, not cards that 'might' help me commit fewer cards in a mid/late game attempt to survive.

Everything with respect to the 'future' is correct (my ps agrees with you of course), we dont know how important this card will become. All I'm addressing is it's importance in the here and now, and specficially in response to me seeing it in decks that don't benefit from having it.

- dut

Nfxon said:

Thats undestandable and I wont argue that point. I will however point out. Georgia, the state, had four copies of PTP sent to the entire state. Thats a bit scarce. Considering our store alone packs 13+ players. Now lets say you need at least 3 copies of it decked to ever reliably draw it. Our store alone would need 40ish copies. << That is a bit much but half that number is not bad for a big store. That to me, is determental. B/c I wouldn't run it for the speed hate.

Wow, that's interesting. Then it seems I have two of the four sent to the entire state... Cool!

Not to ruin your argument as I agree with a good bit of it, might I say, but moreso correcting your misinterpretation of what Georgia's player base consists of. I can account for at least four sent to our own store, and based on your player count, we definately aren't playing at the same store.

Forgive me if I come across as rude.
But where do you play? We dont hear much about you guys or your store. So I was completely unaware of another GA play group.
And by that note we can up GA's PTP count to 8?

We play at Dr No's in marietta. Would love to have some fresh people in the meta as it always makes things interesting.