A Pfennig for Your Thoughts >> Economy and Commerce in WFRP

By ynnen, in WFRP Archived Announcements

Social graces, clever planning, skill at arms, arcane spellcraft, or pious devotion to the gods can help see characters through a lot of the encounters they may face. But there is another factor that can have a powerful influence on interactions and encounters – money.

From purchasing gear in the local marketstrasse to bribing a watchman to look the other way when you bring a wagon full of black market goods into town, money, commerce, and social economic tiers can have a significant impact on a roleplaying setting. This designer diary takes a closer look at the Empire’s economy, the three distinct social tiers found there, and briefly discusses tools of the adventuring trade.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_news.asp?eidn=881

interesting system....not something in used to but i like it : )

The wealth tier system is a very good idea. In my WFRP2 campaigns I always assigned bonuses and penalties to social interactions depending on how the characters were dressed, so this tier mechanics will be very useful to me.

I also liked the examples given for item qualities. I think they are very good examples of the many opportunitis brought up by the pool dice system. I must say the game is looking better with every published diary entry.

Another aspect of the social tier system is it allows developers to add one more way to classify and describe NPCs and locations. They can be presented, attributed, and discussed by these broad social tier classifications, which provides the GM some additional context to consider when making decisions based on interactions between the PCs and the NPCs.

For example... with the guidelines and information introduced with the three social tiers, classifying the Hog and Whistle Inn as a "brass" tier establishment provides the GM with a much different idea of the place and how to manage an encounter there than if the Hog and Whistle Inn is classified as a "silver" tier establishment. While that may not be the extent of the location's description, this is another layer of flavour and information the GM has at his disposal, to use (or ignore) as he sees fit.

You know what Jay?

It is absolutly magical how this system unravels with every single diary.

I became as a hater. Yes I admit that. I hated this 3-rd ed at the beginning.

But with every diary my spirit was more and more at ease.

Right now I can tell You that I absolutely support this new edition.

Sure it is different than all the things I was used to, and have many tids and bits I'm not sure about, but when I look at it as a whole, then I see that You guys at FFG put a lot of thought, hard work and heart into it.

Everything, even this last diary about economy, economy that looked simple and not especially innovative at first glimpse has its meaning, brings additional informations to GM and leaves the door open to many, many ideas, and adventures.

I walked a long road to this moment and must say, that I really LOVE what You did to Warhammer.

Keep up with the good work!

PS: this is MY PERSONAL opinion, You DO NOT have to agree with it gui%C3%B1o.gif

Loved this post. Thoroughly agree with the new coinage system, as it should make pricing a whole bundle more 'realistic' than the 2nd edition. As a favour Jay for us older gamers, could you give us an indication of a few prices from each social tier, a pint of beer, a sword, a keg of brettonian brandy, a destrier, a pistol, a merchant galleon, an ordinary urban house, for example. These might give us even further understanding of the new pricing system. The idea of the social tiers is a great GM tool, as referring to NPC's as one of the three tiers will make social interactions so much quicker to adjudicate. Really good work!

Cross-post from StS:

The idea of three currencies for three levels of finance is actually fairly good.

I do think it is a shame to lose the old imperial conversions 12d = 1/- 20/- =1gc.

The only issue or possible issue that I can see so far is how would a Gold person deal with a Brass person? The conversion rate of 1gc = 2500d seems almost pointless, Brass is basically worthless to a Gold level person and a Brass tier person would be unlikely to have enough cash to be able to deal with a Gold level character.


Here is an example of the problem in action:

A Dwarf comes out of the mountains walks into a small Empire village pop.34 he walks into the local (brass) barn like tavern orders a pint of ale, swiftly drinks it, followed by another pint and a meal of black bread and hard cheese. The Dwarf walks to the counter to pay, he produces one of the four Gold Crowns he brought with him when he left his Dwarfhold.

How much change does the barkeep give the Dwarf?

Does the combined finacial might of the village total one Gold Crown?

Any thoughts on how to get round this problem?


The Legendary Jack Slayer said:

Any thoughts on how to get round this problem?

The barkeep and the other villagers consider the problem, then decide to kill the Dwarf and take all his stuff.

Otherwise, I don't really see the problem. People carry brass and silver around with them. If a rich billionaire walks into a pub, he doesn't try to pay for his pint with a €500 note.

The Legendary Jack Slayer said:

Any thoughts on how to get round this problem?

One solution is for the barkeep to just say: "I don't have change for gold"

The dwarf is then forced to drastically overpay for his meal or find some other way to placate the barkeep.

I think it makes sense if you think of it in terms of the upper tiers using currency that is, effectively, foreign to the lower tiers (this is not so true with the Gold and Silver tiers interacting together, but both would have trouble dealing with a brass transaction). If you walked into a bar here in the U.S. and tried to pay with Euros (currently worth more than the dollar), the bartender would (probably) either refuse the Euros, but still demand you find some way to pay or take the Euros without giving you any change, knowing he can make more money when he exchanges the bills. Alternately, If he takes the Euros, you might be able to demand that he give you change in American money, but even if he did, he'd probably treat the Euros like dollars and so you'd still not get the proper amount of change. And, as already pointed out, somebody in there would probably be willing to try and kill the dwarf because he's flashing gold around.

I'm also disappointed they changed the monetary conversion that was used in 1e/2e.

As for how to handle things with this new system? I would suggest that there would probably be coins of different size and value within each group. So you may have a large Brass Penny worth the equivalent of 10 pence or a small Gold Crown equal to half the value of the standard GC, etc. Without additional coinages like this it would indeed be very difficult to buy a lot of things unless you had the exact coinage and honestly its not realistic that any society could function very well using only the coinages listed. Our own world had many different denominations, like Half Pence, Half Pound, etc., so its reasonable to assume any society with a coin based economy would need to have more than three denominations with such a large difference in value between them.

I certainly hope the primary decision to move away from the old 1e/2e conversion (which was more realistic btw) in favor of this new conversion was not solely based on the idea of separating social tiers based on coinages. preocupado.gif

I'm also a bit disappointed.

The strange british/german feel of WFRP was a part of its personality. Also, actual RW currencies of Early Renaissance are cousins of the Imperial system. I wonder what the price lists will look like. If they use Shillings and Pence only, then I think it might make things all right.

The only things you should buy with gold are plate armour, destiers, ships, luxury items, cannons...

Rich burghers will be able to pay most or all expenses using only Shillings and Pennies.

The thing to keep in mind is that Gold Crowns don't circulate on the street. They are stashed in vaults and are transfered from one place to another under heavy escort. Letters of change (I don't know the exact English word for that) are also used to reduce the transfer of actual coins. (A bit like modern banks that sum up all transactions of any one day with other banks and wire only the total amount owed.) These letters would change hands and often go from one person to another for a good while before anybody actually cashed it.

Dwarfs use gold, fine, but then they must have tiny coins of gold for pennies and thus can buy common items easily. I would even say that the Dwarfen Penny, being made of gold, would probably exchange at a premium over the standard Imperial Penny. So in the bar example, the bartender would be probably happy to give out an extra piece of cheese and an extra mug of ale for the same price, just to put his grubby hands on a piece of gold...

This said, in countries where dwarf are less respected, the opposite could happen. (But then again, you can always bring the gold to the goldmonger and trade it for silver... so things can get very specific)

Also, the important thing to remember is that people where wary of coinage in medieval times. They checked the coin for weight and purity, because that's what the value was based on ! The weight of gold and silver are the most important factors in assessing the value of a coin. If things seem dodgy, the merchant will ask for more coins to compensate or will refuse to trade with those coins.

About tiers. Gold tier people all the elite of the Old World society. Beign elite in the Renaissance automatically means having numbers of lackeys, servants and guards. And clerks for the management of ones funds. Chests full of coin will be kept in strong houses or safes and every coin in or out will be recorded in ledgers. That is why, even in the Gold Elite world, most coins used are silver and brass. Cumbersome ? Yes !!! But that is why letters of exchange were invented in the first place !

Warhammer is set in an epoch where currency is becoming the most common form of trade and with that comes the huge problem of lugging all this metal around. The mutation in merchant practices and banking is underway, it's a period of change. It's also a period of change regarding the printed word, gunpowder, discovery of Lustria... That's why this moment in history is so exciting and refreshing compared to hard core medieval settings (that replicate the 13th-14th centuries).

Dwarves may adore gold, but they also have silver and brass coins for all the basic transactions. They are even more likely to hoard their gold than a Marienburg banker. A dwarf is about as likely to try and buy a pint of beer in an Imperial tavern with a gold coin as Karl Franz is likely to regularly frequent the dockside pubs of Altdorf. Anybody flashing gold coins around the wrong parts of town are likely to get the wrong kind of attention. If you need to turn your recently looted gold coins into more usable silver, then you go to a bank or moneychangers and suffer there 10% cut. This system is actually far closer to the medieval reality, where gold was used to make CAPITAL purchases. like land, property, ships or large quantities of trade goods, otherwise silver or brass was the order of the day.

The Dwarf is also likely to demand his money back with threats of violence when he tastes the over-priced swill humans call ale.

Come to think of it, the analogy about a European in an American bar is extremely accurate. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Bertolac said:

The Dwarf is also likely to demand his money back with threats of violence when he tastes the over-priced swill humans call ale.

Come to think of it, the analogy about a European in an American bar is extremely accurate. gui%C3%B1o.gif

QFT aplauso.gif

Bertolac said:

...

Come to think of it, the analogy about a European in an American bar is extremely accurate. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Actually it is not that accurate at all (though still a good example none the less), in both cases the value of the inherant property of the transactional medium (the Euro) is next to worthless, its the assigned societial value that is placed on that medium that makes it worth anything (assuming the Barkeeper can even recognise it).

In the case of the dwarf the metal has the value reguardless of the minting procedure, and if in strict need the dwarf could always shave some gold directly from the coin itself (likely not prefered by the dwarf) to get the lesser value needed. The gold has its value, not the minting itself unlike modern currency.

Eairly coin based currency systems worked more on the metal itself, while the minting factor gave coins an implied purity level with it. Which inturn gave issues of shaved or pieces of coin.

I find the denomination aspect an oddity of the new system, and I would be curious as to why the designers went with that format.

Loswaith said:

Bertolac said:

...

Come to think of it, the analogy about a European in an American bar is extremely accurate. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Actually it is not that accurate at all (though still a good example none the less), in both cases the value of the inherant property of the transactional medium (the Euro) is next to worthless, its the assigned societial value that is placed on that medium that makes it worth anything (assuming the Barkeeper can even recognise it).

In the case of the dwarf the metal has the value reguardless of the minting procedure, and if in strict need the dwarf could always shave some gold directly from the coin itself (likely not prefered by the dwarf) to get the lesser value needed. The gold has its value, not the minting itself unlike modern currency.

Eairly coin based currency systems worked more on the metal itself, while the minting factor gave coins an implied purity level with it. Which inturn gave issues of shaved or pieces of coin.

I find the denomination aspect an oddity of the new system, and I would be curious as to why the designers went with that format.

ragnar63 said:

Loswaith said:

Bertolac said:

...

Come to think of it, the analogy about a European in an American bar is extremely accurate. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Actually it is not that accurate at all (though still a good example none the less), in both cases the value of the inherant property of the transactional medium (the Euro) is next to worthless, its the assigned societial value that is placed on that medium that makes it worth anything (assuming the Barkeeper can even recognise it).

In the case of the dwarf the metal has the value reguardless of the minting procedure, and if in strict need the dwarf could always shave some gold directly from the coin itself (likely not prefered by the dwarf) to get the lesser value needed. The gold has its value, not the minting itself unlike modern currency.

Eairly coin based currency systems worked more on the metal itself, while the minting factor gave coins an implied purity level with it. Which inturn gave issues of shaved or pieces of coin.

I find the denomination aspect an oddity of the new system, and I would be curious as to why the designers went with that format.

If you want to go imto that system you could have the Vilking system of slicing up pieces of jewellery ( hack silver) to make up the weight needed for a purchase etc. However that could get you into the complicated system of the weight of the metal you are carrying, and also its purity, great if it is dwarf gold, crap if it is Tilean. Currency systems are never perfect, but if you want to get into metal weight not currency as your system, then you better be prepared to have a lot of bartering going on, as that was how most goods would be sold under such a system.

Not really Loswaith is correct back in the days of silver and gold coins the weight of the coin determined it's value. I'm sure most people know why we have milled coins, for those of you who don't it was to stop thieves from scrapping a thin layer of silver or gold from each coin. If you "Clipped" 20-30 coins you had enough gold or silver to make a new coin.

On the purity factor Henry VIII debased the english coinage he mixed worthless metal in with gold to create more coins and he achieved the first mass inflation because the coins he had minted were considered to be worth less than the old pure coins, therefore people demanded more of the new coinage when dealing with them.

Logistically the idea of coins of different value with the WFRPv3 system is not very viable. A ten shilling piece would have to weigh ten times that of an ordinary shilling or if made Gold one tenth the weight of a standard Gold Crown. The only way that similar sized coinage of different values would work is if the Empire has aquired a central bank that issuses the coins and guarantees their exchange rate, much like the monetary systems employed today.

Foolishboy said:

ragnar63 said:

Loswaith said:

Bertolac said:

...

Come to think of it, the analogy about a European in an American bar is extremely accurate. gui%C3%B1o.gif

Actually it is not that accurate at all (though still a good example none the less), in both cases the value of the inherant property of the transactional medium (the Euro) is next to worthless, its the assigned societial value that is placed on that medium that makes it worth anything (assuming the Barkeeper can even recognise it).

In the case of the dwarf the metal has the value reguardless of the minting procedure, and if in strict need the dwarf could always shave some gold directly from the coin itself (likely not prefered by the dwarf) to get the lesser value needed. The gold has its value, not the minting itself unlike modern currency.

Eairly coin based currency systems worked more on the metal itself, while the minting factor gave coins an implied purity level with it. Which inturn gave issues of shaved or pieces of coin.

I find the denomination aspect an oddity of the new system, and I would be curious as to why the designers went with that format.

If you want to go imto that system you could have the Vilking system of slicing up pieces of jewellery ( hack silver) to make up the weight needed for a purchase etc. However that could get you into the complicated system of the weight of the metal you are carrying, and also its purity, great if it is dwarf gold, crap if it is Tilean. Currency systems are never perfect, but if you want to get into metal weight not currency as your system, then you better be prepared to have a lot of bartering going on, as that was how most goods would be sold under such a system.

Not really Loswaith is correct back in the days of silver and gold coins the weight of the coin determined it's value. I'm sure most people know why we have milled coins, for those of you who don't it was to stop thieves from scrapping a thin layer of silver or gold from each coin. If you "Clipped" 20-30 coins you had enough gold or silver to make a new coin.

On the purity factor Henry VIII debased the english coinage he mixed worthless metal in with gold to create more coins and he achieved the first mass inflation because the coins he had minted were considered to be worth less than the old pure coins, therefore people demanded more of the new coinage when dealing with them.

Logistically the idea of coins of different value with the WFRPv3 system is not very viable. A ten shilling piece would have to weigh ten times that of an ordinary shilling or if made Gold one tenth the weight of a standard Gold Crown. The only way that similar sized coinage of different values would work is if the Empire has aquired a central bank that issuses the coins and guarantees their exchange rate, much like the monetary systems employed today.

I'll say that a war even on the monetary system isn't necessary.

I found this article not very interesting (and questionable the change rates), but if I've played D&D for 8 years I can play with v3 coinage system.
About the "not selling to adventurer" well it's not a new twist, I hope, for experienced GM.
About the silver as the main metal I'm happy with it. There are many settings that use this metal (or Ducats, etc.). Though this is a welcome change (for me, at least).

My general impression, though, is of little substance. Cosmetic changes, not always needed, not always good.

1st preview of 3rd ed. I like. Will use it for my home campaign. Previous monetary system was annoying. Good change FFG. (but the fancy dice you can keep to yourself. :) )

I have to say that I'm annoyed at the coinage change. I can't really fathom a really good reason to change what was established in v1 and continued in v2. This is either change for change's sake, or it's intended to just annoy the loyal (if cantankerous) old fan base without a real need to do so.

As to the nearly explicit adoption of Plato's Republic as the model for society, that's cute; a little coin to social class analogy. It would have meaning if some emperor would have made it an edict that the upper classes were only allowed to trade in gold, the middle class in silver, and you get the rest. But, if adventurers can trade in what they like, this surely isn't the case.

Okay, so I'm confused. Where did it say in the article that nobles only trade in gold and the poor only trade in brass? The article simply gives an overview of the levels of society using the coinage as an analogy - nowhere does it say that a rich merchant won't have brass coins, it just points out that most of their business is done through goods with a value in gold. This isn't a rule, is simply an analogy.

Also as to the whole, 'how do you get change for a gold in a tavern?', simple, you don't. Just as I can't use a fifty on a bus - they don't have change for that and I know this. If that's all I have, then I have to find a way to break it to get on that bus - or get a taxi. And Dwarfs only trading in gold is fine - it'll be them that have different denominations of gold (there's no way a Dwarf will overpay for anything) and those living on the edge of Human society are extremely likely to know that the coinage is different.

Honestly, I think people deliberately look for problems in these diaries. All this from a simple analogy that explains a rigid class system to potential younger buyers who might not understand it given that they live in socially mobile societies.

When money were made of valuable metals, they were litterally cut in pieces if their value exeeded the transaction.
No need to change.

Bertolac said:

Okay, so I'm confused. Where did it say in the article that nobles only trade in gold and the poor only trade in brass? The article simply gives an overview of the levels of society using the coinage as an analogy - nowhere does it say that a rich merchant won't have brass coins, it just points out that most of their business is done through goods with a value in gold. This isn't a rule, is simply an analogy.

Also as to the whole, 'how do you get change for a gold in a tavern?', simple, you don't. Just as I can't use a fifty on a bus - they don't have change for that and I know this. If that's all I have, then I have to find a way to break it to get on that bus - or get a taxi. And Dwarfs only trading in gold is fine - it'll be them that have different denominations of gold (there's no way a Dwarf will overpay for anything) and those living on the edge of Human society are extremely likely to know that the coinage is different.

Honestly, I think people deliberately look for problems in these diaries. All this from a simple analogy that explains a rigid class system to potential younger buyers who might not understand it given that they live in socially mobile societies.

Bertolac said:

Honestly, I think people deliberately look for problems in these diaries. All this from a simple analogy that explains a rigid class system to potential younger buyers who might not understand it given that they live in socially mobile societies.

Yes, that is precisely what I said - I said it was an analogy, I even called it cute.

No, I'm not deliberately looking for problems, and I'm not being reflexively hostile to change. On re-reading it, I am now noticing that they write in tension between the settled classes and adventurers, so I realize that the second sentence of my second paragraph is a little harsh. Consider it withdrawn in favor of the following query:

How prevalent are adventurers in this new version of the game world? Are the PCs (almost) the only ones setting on adventuring, or are they constantly bumping into others trapsing after loot and treasure? (Obviously, this is not a two-choice question, and there are degrees in between.) The more adventurers are common, the more the social barriers between the three classes breaks down.

I think it's also worthwhile to note that this three-tier system is a break from the society that historically existed, between the warrior class, the priestly class, and the rest. I think it's interesting that in this conception, the merchants really have 'arrived'. In my reading of v1 (and v2), there was a little more tension between the merchant classes and the warrior classes, instead of here between the gold and silver classes.

Another thing to think about is how the wealthy merchants got so rich? What are the commodities that they trade in that would have such margins of profit, or need for great bulk trade, in order to make them rise in society the way that they are said to have done. In RW-history, it is commonly conceived that long-distance trade was the source of wealth, along with a fastidious culture of investment. The fastidious culture would rule out the ostentation needed to mingle with the warrior-nobility, the way that the gold classes here are said to do. I am interested in the long-distance trade in the Old World and possibly beyond. Though the Old World Armoury (if memory holds) mentions little of the Arabyan trade, and the trade to the East, I do think that these would be necessary for the rise of a wealthy merchant class, especially if Marienburg (where the merchants have long ago replaced the warrior nobility) has a stranglehold on the sea-trade.

Okay, I'm just thinking out loud now, but I'm curious what you all will make of it.

Historically the merchant classes have tried (and often succeeded) into pushing into the aristocracy whenever possible. There's a lot of historical material about this kind of stuff and the various ways these struggles occurred. Sumptuary laws (laws restricting what you could wear, by class of profession), ways around sumptuary laws (say having an undergarment out of a restricted material and slashes in the outer garment so parts of the undergarment showed), marrying into a title, buying a title, legal maneuvers, etcetera. Given that Imperial society has long had a powerful merchant class, the upper layers of it are going to in the Tier of Gold. Bretonnia would be different, of course.

As for restriction based on class, they still happen to day in our much less class concerned society. You're not going to get seated in a fancy resteraunt in dirty jeans, for example. Adventurers aren't respectable people for the most part. They're wandering, well armed, violent vagabonds with few if any connections to the local community and wealth of dubious providence. They are, in short, just slightly above criminal scumbags unless they do something to appear differently.