The future of informal Standard

By mischraum.de, in 1. AGoT General Discussion

I wonder who is playing "Standard" anymore in the US and Europe and with what cards (LCG + 5KE after the Stahleck tourney?). I started a thread javascript:void(0);/*1256627065809*/ , maybe in the wrong forum but nevertheless I was astonished that there was only one answering post till now.

pretty sure no one's playing "standard" anymore. following the rotation schedule 5KE is the only expansion outside of LCG left in "standard", and it doesn't seem worth it to go against the grain and think about 5KE + LCG rather than just LCG alone, which is what everyone here in the US has used for tournaments since Black Friday 2008 and will use going forward. that and, buying 5KE cards just costs more. the LCG environment is sufficiently rich at this point, and will only keep improving.

the influx of new players not only kept FFG happy, expanded metas, and kept the game alive in LCG but it kept too many tournaments over here from being in standard the last year when the impetus for standard was at the highest. I think it was still played in some metas, but as they got new people either more invokved or more people showing up they shifted to LCG to not drive away the new players.

Standard is dead.

Once ITE left, there was no point in keeping it aroundust 5K. That set certainly wasn't impressive enough to warrant teh headache of supplying newbies wiht the commons and uncommons so they could compete.

For the record - I am very glad Long Island and to an extent NY as a whole supported Standard through this past August. I will go to my grave thinking the early rotation of ITE and 5K was a tremendous mistake and seriously damaged the community we had. Organized play has still not recovered - and yes, part of that is becuase they still haven't really gotten an OP system up and running. But Taking a block and a base set out of the game - AFTER saying they would keep them around engendered a lot of ill will and drove many of our best people away.

Keeping Standard around kept at leats my local meta alive and if there was a lot of local support for 5K I would ahve no issues making it legal for tournaments .

IMHO, discussions and/or debates over the "predominant" play format of AGoT (LCG, "informal Standard" or Legacy) are wholly uninteresting. Without an organized play program to drive a consistent format between play groups, it is a completely moot topic to my ears. Is there really all that much interest in what format other people are playing?

I think for people who frequent these boards, there's interest in knowing what other people are playing because of the, albeit infrequent, multi-group events that happen. People want to show up and play the game as they've been playing leading up to the event and without a lot of effort to agree before hand on what is valid and what is not. For that reason, FFG official errata are still important. Also, having a prevailing format helps these boards in that we can have interesting conversations talking about the "same game" (of course, conversations on differences can also be interesting).

LetsGoRed said:

Also, having a prevailing format helps these boards in that we can have interesting conversations talking about the "same game" (of course, conversations on differences can also be interesting).

So... the fact that there hasn't been a particularly interesting, ongoing or inclusive conversation related to strategy, deck-types or game play for over a year is because too many people were playing too many different formats? The "consistent format drives discussion" reasoning would have more of an impact on me if we were having discussions.

The only multi-group "events" that have taken place in the last year are your own. And it sounds like the same people 12ish people showing up to them. Oh, and GenCon - which at 23 people was the lowest GenCon turnout ever. I'm not seeing the "multi-group events that happen" reasoning for why I should be generally interested in what format other groups are playing. If I'm going to a particular event, I'll find out their format and then start to care. Until I buy the ticket, not so much.

ktom said:

So... the fact that there hasn't been a particularly interesting, ongoing or inclusive conversation related to strategy, deck-types or game play for over a year is because too many people were playing too many different formats? The "consistent format drives discussion" reasoning would have more of an impact on me if we were having discussions.

The only multi-group "events" that have taken place in the last year are your own. And it sounds like the same people 12ish people showing up to them. Oh, and GenCon - which at 23 people was the lowest GenCon turnout ever. I'm not seeing the "multi-group events that happen" reasoning for why I should be generally interested in what format other groups are playing. If I'm going to a particular event, I'll find out their format and then start to care. Until I buy the ticket, not so much.

There's been or will be shortly a few gatherings that have, I believe, brought together people who aren't normally in the same play group other than the NYC events and GenCon: CaliCon, Ring's Seattle regional, the Stahleck Tournament, and the French Nationals come to mind. Sure, they may not be large, but they are still different player groups coming together to play and having a prevailing format helps make those events being appealing I think.

As for interesting conversation, that's of course a matter of opinion, but I think there's been several interesting conversations about strategies/deck-types/house strengths/etc. in the LCG environment in recent memory (MwNK, which you were active in, Lannister's dominance/Castellan, and other conversations about seasons, Shadows, and card erratas as they've been announced have had there moments as I recall). Those conversation I don't think happen or, at least, don't have as much participation if folks are not generally playing the same format.

Of course, we can discuss in person the merits or lack thereof of having a prevailing format in light of the current state of the game on Nov 27. gui%C3%B1o.gif

LetsGoRed said:

CaliCon, Ring's Seattle regional, the Stahleck Tournament, and the French Nationals come to mind.

Which generated almost no discussion, reports, etc. on the boards. People may have played, but there was almost no sharing or discussion of what happened at those events. The local interest didn't carry over to the public forum - and I don't think it was because people thought they were playing a different format.

LetsGoRed said:

As for interesting conversation, that's of course a matter of opinion, but I think there's been several interesting conversations about strategies/deck-types/house strengths/etc. in the LCG environment in recent memory (MwNK, which you were active in, Lannister's dominance/Castellan, and other conversations about seasons, Shadows, and card erratas as they've been announced have had there moments as I recall). Those conversation I don't think happen or, at least, don't have as much participation if folks are not generally playing the same format.

Most of those discussions were short (less than 3 full pages) and consisted primarily of people mostly agreeing on the major points. In fact, the one that lasted the longest a had the most participants (the MwNK discussion) frequently discussed the difference in the way the card performed in different formats.

Don't get me wrong - I think a common or pervasive format is a great thing that helps the cohesion of the community-at-large. The point I'm trying to make, though, is that the common format does not create that cohesion on its own. The community-at-large needs to exist first. Without the cohesion and general desire to have a larger, interactive and interacting community, the topic of "primary format" doesn't carry much weight. I don't see much of a push for, or interest in, a larger AGoT community. Even when the "grass roots" metas get together for events, it isn't as "newsworthy" as it has been in the past. I mean, do we really think it is any lingering indecision between an LCG or "traditional standard" format that has turned the torrent of geographic "cross pollination" that the game enjoyed 18-24 months ago into the current trickling stream?

Well For What it's worth. When the No Mass folks do play, they usually play with decks un modified since last year. (Hence ITE + 5KE + ACoA).

If I were able to play more often I probably would be developing some classic decks.

ktom said:

IMHO, discussions and/or debates over the "predominant" play format of AGoT (LCG, "informal Standard" or Legacy) are wholly uninteresting. Without an organized play program to drive a consistent format between play groups, it is a completely moot topic to my ears. Is there really all that much interest in what format other people are playing?

Okay I do care. Why? Because in a tournament like Stahleck people from all over Europe will gather this December. There will be a LCG tournament and a Standard (ITE+) tournament as well. And around here I think the Standard tournament will be the more important one (if you want to take things seriously). I just was interested if there will be a "Standard" tournament next year as well at Stahleck, if people are interested in one and if if they would play 5KE+. They could have skipped Standard for this tournament but they did not. And is it so bad for new players, playing LCG only if there is a format in addition? Magic has different formats, VS system had... I think the 5KE block was a good one and it deserves to be unofficially supported and it would shine without the nasty ITE cards.

mischraum.de said:

Okay I do care. Why? Because in a tournament like Stahleck people from all over Europe will gather this December. There will be a LCG tournament and a Standard (ITE+) tournament as well. And around here I think the Standard tournament will be the more important one (if you want to take things seriously). I just was interested if there will be a "Standard" tournament next year as well at Stahleck, if people are interested in one and if if they would play 5KE+.

Thanks for proving the point.

You care about an official format because of Stahleck. LGR cares because of Black Friday. The two of you have vestiges of "beyond local" metas - which FFG is not doing much encourage these days (note that both Stahleck and Black Friday predate the LCG). And in the end, you're both choosing the format you think people will be willing to travel to play.

Discussions of format presuppose a competitive environment and events that are worth attending. That part of this community has been dying out for the last couple of years. That's not a judgment call - just an observation. And it's just not that the events aren't happening or are drawing far fewer people; it's that interest in the events by people who do not attend is flagging.

Case in point; Stahleck is about 6 weeks away, right? In past years, 6 weeks to Stahleck was a guarantee of buzz and conversation on the boards. Who is going? What were they likely to play? Which House was the one to beat? How could you beat those Houses? How different was the European metagame from the US metagame? So-and-so reports a broken combo that is going to clean up - is it real? All those sorts of things. This year, it's hardly even in the awareness on these boards. (Perhaps there is more buzz on the international boards, but that in itself is an indication that the game is moving away from a large, inter/national metagame structure.)

So again, this is personal opinion, but I find discussions of format to be largely without relevance because there isn't a strong enough organized play program necessitating regular or consistent unity of card pools across local metas. We're not traveling anymore, and there doesn't seem to be much interest in traveling (or in the experiences of those who do) making it to the discussion boards.

If we're going to talk about format, I think the discussion needs to start with why we would want to have a regular format across our local play groups, what we're going to do to support it and how we're going to encourage people to share their experiences - either through discussion or actual travel outside their local environments.

Discussion works for me - I don't need to travel to be interested in the overall state of the game. To that end, it does help if we are all tlaking about the same thing - a point in fact that we are qucikly approaching as the LCG pool gets deeper.

All Thrones being local is well and good - but I do enjoy the chance to meet and try decks against teh best that other groups can offer - becuase even the biggest of these local groups is still a pretty small selection - and its always good to get a sense fo what else is out there. I guess LGR and I and the rest of the East Coast guys are lcuky we are here in the Northeast Corridor. Not only is intermets travle realtively inexpensive, but we have developed vibrant rivalries between the groups that makes these little soirees more entertaining.

If bloodycelt could just get Chabot and the Young Wolf back in the lists now that the card pool can support some broader depth - that would be sweet.

Stag Lord said:

...now that the card pool can support some broader depth ...

Interesting phrase. "Broader depth." Heh.

Consciously chosen, my good ser.

Just made me chuckle because depth usually improves by getting deeper instead of broader.

mischraum.de said:

Okay I do care. Why? Because in a tournament like Stahleck people from all over Europe will gather this December. There will be a LCG tournament and a Standard (ITE+) tournament as well. And around here I think the Standard tournament will be the more important one (if you want to take things seriously). I just was interested if there will be a "Standard" tournament next year as well at Stahleck, if people are interested in one and if if they would play 5KE+. They could have skipped Standard for this tournament but they did not. And is it so bad for new players, playing LCG only if there is a format in addition? Magic has different formats, VS system had... I think the 5KE block was a good one and it deserves to be unofficially supported and it would shine without the nasty ITE cards.

Standard Joust has whole saturday to be played, while LCG joust has only friday afternoon-evening. Maybe if they would be both played at the same time you would have known what format is more important, or at least more played.

I will go to Stahleck, and if there weren´t Multiplayer LCG on Sat, I wouldn´t have gone, and like me, more than 6 other Spanish players that are going there also.