Kisheri and reversals

By Ziephnir, in UFS Rules Q & A

this came up as a big thing against a certain wagon driver in some casual games.

Reversal: (Response) - R Reveal this card from your hand: After an opponent’s
attack has resolved, if a player with this card successfully blocked the attack, he
may immediately attempt to play this attack from his hand, proceeding as if he
played a regular attack. Once this attack has resolved, his opponent continues
with his Combat Phase. A player may only attempt to play one Reversal per
attack.

just confirming that if i have 2 cards in hand, block and then go for a reverse pommel smash as astrid, he can check a 5 and discard it by responding to the cost of reversal.

No. This is a change that should be fixed soon. The Reversal rule that you are quoting is a cut-n-paste from the old rules. The most recent version of Reversal, instead of revealing the card from your hand, it enters the Transitional Zone, where is becomes revealed by a game mechanic.

So basically, no, Reversal does not reveal cards from your hand. Instead, it places the card into a zone of play that reveals it in and of itself.

Hopefully someone can back me up on this, as I admit, it sounds like I am talking out my...transitional zone.

-Tinman

Tinman said:

No. This is a change that should be fixed soon. The Reversal rule that you are quoting is a cut-n-paste from the old rules. The most recent version of Reversal, instead of revealing the card from your hand, it enters the Transitional Zone, where is becomes revealed by a game mechanic.

So basically, no, Reversal does not reveal cards from your hand. Instead, it places the card into a zone of play that reveals it in and of itself.

Hopefully someone can back me up on this, as I admit, it sounds like I am talking out my...transitional zone.

-Tinman

*stamp*

(How's that for backup?)

sorry i didnt care to include the numbers and citing:

2.14.2.7 Reversal
Reversal: (Response) - R Reveal this card from your hand: After an opponent’s
attack has resolved, if a player with this card successfully blocked the attack, he
may immediately attempt to play this attack from his hand, proceeding as if he
played a regular attack. Once this attack has resolved, his opponent continues
with his Combat Phase. A player may only attempt to play one Reversal per
attack. (See 8.0 The Combat Phase for more information on playing cards and
resolving attacks.)

from the most recent tournament rules 2.0 and not the AGR we've been promised for a while

and


Reversal (Response) - R Reveal this card from your hand: After an opponent’s attack has resolved, if a player with this card successfully blocked the attack, he may immediately attempt to play this attack from his hand, proceeding as if he played a regular attack. Once this attack has resolved, his opponent continues with his Combat Phase. A player may only attempt to play one reversal per attack.

from the redefining of the keywords that happened in march

if there are some other wordings to the keywords make them publicly accessable and not with the known-to-not-help-at-all search function on the forums

sorry about the bash to the AGR part but both of those are also verbatim to whats in the AGR linked at the top of the Q&A section

Plus, I'm pretty sure that they are going to change it to when a card is revealed due to an effect, not due to a cost.

http://new.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=30&efcid=5&efidt=196214&efpag=1#200525

Sorry, I covered this back on September 16th.

There is a pending revision of the AGR. However I have the gaming division to run for a 15,000 person convention next weekend, so all of my volunteer work for UFS has been placed on the back burner until the show is done. My apologies to all for the inconvenience this has caused.

Hayamachop said:

Plus, I'm pretty sure that they are going to change it to when a card is revealed due to an effect, not due to a cost.

Correct.

ya. So this doesn't work for 2 reasons, lol.

One: kisheri can only respond to cards resolved as part of an effect.

B: When you "announce" a reversal, it is no longer in your hand and cannot be discarded.

Antigoth said:

Functional Errata for Kisheri -

R(5+): After your opponent reveals any number of cards from their hand due to the cost or effect of a card, they must discard 1 card.

Please note that the revealing a card to play it is not a cost of the card, but part of the core game rules.

This is official - the errata documents and omni-faq will be updated with it when time permits.

last functional errata i can find for kisheri, so only one reason: reversal is redefined and undocumented other than saying it goes to the transitional zone in the next AGR

Ziephnir said:

last functional errata i can find for kisheri, so only one reason: reversal is redefined and undocumented other than saying it goes to the transitional zone in the next AGR

Last functional errata you quoted was accurate.

The current AGR however already has the revised text in it, but there is a conflict within the AGR.

4.8.1 When a card is announced to be played from hand, it immediately enters this zone. [This zone being the transitional zone]

Is a copy and paste from the currently published AGR.

Part of the challenge that arose is the transitional zone was not pre-planned when the AGR was first being written. It was something that we added in during the last full night of writing, as it allowed us to settle a number of nagging rules issues.

Some of the lines that exist currently referring to playing from hand, and revealing from hand, are left overs from before the AGR.

If you go to the reversal step, no where in the reversal step does it say "reveal the reversal before playing it."

8.1.1 To attempt to play a card, a player reveals it from their hand.

will be removed from the next edit of the AGR, as 8.1.3 makes it unnecessary. 8.1.1.1, 8.1.1.2, 8.1.2, 8.1.2.1 will all be reorganized to fall under 8.1.3, which will most likely simply assume the mantle of 8.1.1

Additionally 2.14.2.7, and it's ilk will get the same treatment.

Again, I apologize for any inconvenience this has caused. Comiccon is done in less then 6 days, and UFS writing is my next project.

One final note - Kisheri has not officially been released into the prize support. Those who have it, received it as a preview.

While this may be nagging for casual games, the ruling & situation does not currently impact the tournament environment,.